So, the panel you posted proves nothing. Similar to her in Chakra can mean a variety of things, only one of them being amount. Not to mention like I already said that it is important which version of Kaguya is being referenced.
Toneri while fighting Naruto was hurling the moon at extremely slow speeds. Nothing more nothing less. If he had so much Chakra, he wouldn't need the Tenseigan. The KE behind it does not suggest he is comparable in power to Kaguya, not to mention that you seem to have completely thrown scaling out the window in order to keep your precious H4C Naruto...
I found Sasuke's statement (if that's the one you had in mind) and no - saying he can protect the peace himself is opened to interpretation and taking the one which leads to highest tier is not the purpose of this whole thing.
>Narusauce get injured/pushed back by Juubidara
>Same Juubidara that can only muster tier 6 feats and has no reason to hold back
>Juubidara is now tier 4
Still have not received an answer to the most important question: how do you explain the quadrillions of times gap?
-Chakra=stats: no, already addressed it.
-Chakra augmenting: no, on top of that you guys contradicted yourselves hard.
-Holding back: no because there is no apparent reason to outside of head canon, also holding back does not explain the quadrillions of times gap.
-Forms/multipliers: obviously not, quadrillions of times multiplier is laughable.
You just living in denial lol, the fact that nobody other is even replying to this thread just shows how much of a stupid reason you've brought up for the downgrade
Do not derail the thread with off topic things. The upgrades you guys proposed got moved to fun and games and shortly after got closed. All of which in the span of 15 minutes. Take notes and bring better arguments. If not, then kindly leave. Clogging up the thread won't help.
Yet you posted nothing.
And Chakra=/=stats, so that does not prove much. Besides it also depends on which point in time he is comparable to her in Chakra, if the scan is legit at all.
Also, if Toneri was High 4-C, he would be able to destroy earth with ease by ramming the moon into it at high speeds. That is obviously not the case. All of this assumes chakra=stats, which is obviously not the case.
IIRC the statement about Sasuke being confident enough to face and opponent of Kaguya's caliber is baseless, so there you go.
Still waiting on the explanation for covering quadrillions of times gap worth of stats. No matter what you bring up, if it has nothing to do with this, then it still remains an outlier.
Didn't Madara's Limbo clones straight up defeat Naruto's clones? Or am I misremembering? Not that it matters much.
Holding back meaning he didn't go into other forms you mean? Aaah, so you're going to explain how SPSM is a quadrillions of times multiplier for once?
Any damage = tier 5/6
Limbo factually keeping up with more or less with Naruto's clones = comparable
Show me where it was stated Naruto was holding back while his wife was imprisoned and earth was in danger. Make this make sense. Not to mention Toneri's golem was overpowering Kurama. Kurama must've also held back. I feel like you watched a different movie.
New forms don't address the quadrillions of times increase in attack potency.
I guess we're back to the OP yet another time.
Please don't derail the thread anymore if you don't have any new arguements to present.
Taking a direct hit by someone and getting sent flying does no scale to AP? Since when??
Madara's Limbo is capable of keeping up with Narusauce. On top of that, Sasuke clearly took damage.
As for Toneri, are you saying with a straight face that Naruto held back all this time, lowering his stats by quadrillions, while simultaneously pressured by time, his own wife's life and life of earth, for... absolutely no reason? In a movie supposed to show how much of thereat Toneri is?
That is head canon.
Madara clearly pushed them back multiple times. Also, according to Sasuke himself: "An invisible wall? I can't reach him!". This was Madara's Limbo. Any damage by a tier 5/6 character = no tier 4
You're also making a new assumption now - that 3 eye Juubidara would cover the quadrillions of times gap.
Also, I addressed Toneri as an anti feat as well. Why's nobody addressing him? I bet he was holding back as well.
Boruto god tiers were monsters in their own right? Does Chakra correlate to stats, or not? You're evading the question. Wether theyre monsters in their own right or not, they need to have as much Chakra or more in order to keep up with Naruto.
I think this is enough derailing. We're basically back to the OP now.
If any newcomers have problems with the calcs, please address them substantially. Saying they're lowballed and then bringing in vsbattles calculations of all things, I'll fully ignore from now on.
Again, my deepest apologies for the derailing. Things like this happen from time to time. I'll be back in a few hours. Gotta grind IRL, you know ;)
They're relative and can hurt each other, that is correct. I'm wondering where's your explanation addressing the big gap between a "holding back Madara" and tier 4.
If chakra correlates to stats, kid Naruto would tango with top tiers and above and Adult Naruto would one shot every single being in the verse simultaneously. If their chakra correlated to stats, they'd not be performing so poor in terms of feats.
The only way you could get teen Naruto to tier 4 is by using Kaguya, however you're yet to prove Madara and Naruto were holding back to the point they became quadrillions of times weaker.
And since you can't prove that Naruto has the luxury to hold back against someone like Madara, nor Madara has a reason to hold back at all, let alone to the point they go down an entire tier, your argument is dull.
That's like the same poor argument about Naruto holding back against Toneri. Pressured by time, with his wife in danger as well as all life on earth, Naruto would definitely hold back, no, not just that, he'd purposefully become quadrillions of times weaker in order to hold back for absolutely no reason.
Both of these arguments are head canon, poor attempt to keep Naruto's High 4-C tier.
They never went all out, yet they could hurt each other. This means that we go by Madara's feats. It's really simple. Unless you want to tell me both were holding back to the point they were quadrillions of times weaker than normal. Quite the assumption you're making right here, I'd like you to further elaborate.
Don't think so. Naruto vs Sasuke. Chakra does not correlate to stats, be it half of the user's chakra, or not. And that still does not address the quintillions of times gap between the feats (quadrillions if you want to go with tier 5 cause I'm feeling generous).
You're right on one thing for once. My calcs were not accepted. You're free to use the tier 5 calcs vsbattles provides and explain the quadrillions of times gap.
>Naruto keeps up with tier 6 characters. They can both hurt each other >The difference between 6-B and High 4-C is quintillions of times It is literally this simple. Prove Naruto has a viable way of becoming High 4-C, even temporary. If you yourself are claiming you can't pinpoint Naruto's powers, then how can you claim he can get to tier 4? You're contradicting yourself.
>Naruto keeps up with tier 6 characters. They can both hurt each other
>The difference between 6-B and High 4-C is quintillions of times
It is literally this simple. Prove Naruto has a viable way of becoming High 4-C, even temporary.
If you yourself are claiming you can't pinpoint Naruto's powers, then how can you claim he can get to tier 4? You're contradicting yourself.
If Juubidara was relative to Kaguya in power, he'd be able to perform far greater feats. Thus, because we have on panel feats, we use them to quantify his power and we do not assume random things.
Not to mention chakra=/=stats. Chakra can amplify stats, it does not equal to stats. And let's say planetary pools of chakra is planet level attack potency (despite the clear lack of feats on that level). That'd only make the difference between 5-B and High 4-C quadrillions of times.
If we don't know whether any of them had gone all out, at best you go with possibly higher. You don't assume quintillions of times jump, because they may or may not have gone all out. Fact remains, they hurt each other, which means that it does not matter if they had gone all out or not.
The Shinju tree in the planet-large planet level calcs is country sized, and so are the tens of mountians around it. I can also make Naruto's earth moon sized using this size of the Shinju tree, so no, the calc you are talking about is terrible. If you want me to, I could calc it. But that does not matter to the main argument. Quintillions of times difference.
You said Naruto's Chakra can't be measured, yet you go ahead and say that he can multiply it by quintillions of times with no proof. Not 10 times, not 100 times, quintillions of times.
Your entire argument relies on two assumptions though:
-That Naruto can do it and in fact did it
-That he can become quintillions of times stronger this way
So, no, this does not serve any purpose in this case.
Naruto cracking space is spatial manipulation. I'm getting deja vu from Comicvine, where some big brains were unironically arguing universe level Naruto, because he cracked space.
IIRC there was a quote in the novel saying that the Tenseigan would only restore the atmosphere after the crash, but I could be wrong. Either way, this does not point where it stands in terms of durability.
Just because authors don't care about attack potency and speed does not mean we ignore outliers.
If that's the case, should I feel free to upgrade a relativistic character to mach 3.5 million, because the author did not take into account the power scaling?
Like I said, personal opinion has no place in content revisions. Please keep that in mind.
Then all of what you said servers no purpose to your or my argument. Assuming numbers especially of this magnitude is the last thing you should be doing.
Are you saying Naruto's Chakra pool can grow quintillions of times larger by training?
If Kaguya can augment Chakra, that has nothing to do with Naruto. Unless you are willing to show me exactly where it happened or it was stated. I'm talking about multiplying your Chakra by quintillions of times.
Besides the way Kaguya augments Chakra Naruto has no access to.
I'm asking for one thing:
Prove Naruto becomes quintillions of times stronger while in the same form using multipliers/other techniques.
As long as there is no explanation, Naruto has no place in tier 4 for having an anti feat in the same form and later down the series.
The calcs are not lowballed, they're basically what a real calc looks like. And they are definitely better than the nonexistent calculations used for the current ratings. I think I already addressed the country sized mountains and moon sized Naruto earth if you want to go the vsbattles route, you can do that, but the difference in tiers is still in the quintillions of times.
If you guys have issues with the calculations, please address said issues. Complaining that they're lowballed does not help anyone.
Anyways. Since you guys seem to support universe level Naruto, I'd rather wait for more people who are neutral on the topic